Navigating the Complex World of Tracking and Analytics: With Luc Nugteren

Tracking and analytics have never been more complex, or more critical.

In this episode, Jeremy sits down with Luc Nugteren, one of Europe’s top tracking specialists, to unpack what’s really happening with consent mode, server-side tracking, and offline conversions. You’ll learn how to build a compliant, high-accuracy setup that Google actually rewards and why most advertisers are still getting it wrong.

Follow Luc on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luc-nugteren/

Get in touch with Luc directly: https://lucnugteren.com/

Get your free 30 minute strategy session with Jeremy here: https://www.younganddigital.marketing/

Scale your store with 1:1 coaching: https://www.younganddigital.marketing/1-2-1-coaching

Transcript

Hello and welcome back to Google ads unleashed guys, hope everyone is doing fabulously this Monday, and today we've got another guest episode. It's been long overdue. We were just talking about it in the waiting room, because I've been working with this man well for at least a year, if not longer, on the topic of tracking, because I feel that's something a lot of people stumble over. Unfortunately. I say unfortunately, it is one of the most important pillars to do things properly in marketing, and unfortunately, as well, most people get it wrong, and that is why we've been working with this gentleman for a long time now. He's trained our team. He is extremely well known in in the bubble and on LinkedIn. And this man is Luke nook, turn Luke. Thank you so much for joining us today. Maybe tell us a little bit about yourself, what's what's your story, and how did you get into that sort of departure of digital marketing and into this discipline?
Yeah, so let me start off with the fact that I am a 27 year old guy. I live in the Netherlands, which probably some of you would hear from my from my accent. I got into digital marketing, I think, in 2019 and started working for an agency in 2020 for another agency in 2021 all around, digital marketing agency working for clients on location. And that's also where I, all of a sudden, had to do everything at once, because they did digital marketing all around previously, I only had experience with PPC and SEO, but then all of a sudden, I had to become a specialist in many other areas as well. Had to become pretty good at tracking analytics at the same time, because the agency I worked for did basically everything related to that. Learned a lot there, started managing some people as well, consulting clients on PPC, tracking analytics, that sort of thing. But I missed a little bit of freedom in my role back then to do a lot of meetings. I didn't enjoy full days of meetings. Very, very happy that I don't have those anymore. I wanted to work a little bit less as well, so that's why I decided to just try my luck and start freelancing at the beginning of 2023 went pretty well. Slowly, started shifting my focus a little bit from just doing or doing both BPC and tracking analytics to solely doing tracking, because I noticed that. I mean, you've noticed this as well. A lot of demand in the in the industry, yes, lack of knowledge among peers regarding but luckily for me, yeah,
I'm laughing because, you know, naturally, I do this here, and I sort of obviously interview a lot of people on who know a lot of things about PPC and other marketing disciplines. So do I? I'd like to think about Google ads, but it's crazy that there are certain aspects where even I've been, I've been doing this a long time now, 14 years, and I still, I wouldn't say I've got the black belt right, like it's, it's really, I think you have to have the aptitude for it, right? And so many people just don't,
yeah, and what you see with a lot of PPC specialists is that they get to a certain level, especially when you're a bit tech savvy and you you find all that stuff really interesting, but then you hit a ceiling, and you only get over that ceiling if you really start dedicating all of your time to just doing tracking analytics and yeah, at some point, I just decided to start doing that. Really enjoyed the technicality of it all, even though I have no technical background myself, just studied Marketing. Yeah, since then, my week has consisted basically just doing tracking setups for clients, troubleshooting for clients and for agencies, doing coaching with other marketers as well helping them upscale a little bit or fixing certain issues and building templates to make other people's lives a little bit easier, for implementing Google tech manager setups, for example, also building tech templates, that sort of thing, and posting on LinkedIn, of course, since one and a half year or so, amazing.
So you've got quite I actually didn't even know that you started in 2019 that's what a mad fucking time that you can't Sway on this podcast, by the way. What? What a mad fucking time to to get marketing? I think you can right before covid better or worse. I'm not entirely sure which one of the two
I hear all of these great stories about doing tracking a couple of years ago, but. Unfortunately, I got into it a few years too late when all the GDPR stuff started to become really important.
So naturally, I think that's quite interesting sort of segue to the state of tracking and attribution. At the moment, it feels like it has been bit of a mayor in the last, I'd say, five years, and there's been sort of ebbs and flows as well, right? So naturally, GDP are being one thing. IOS 14, for instance, was a big deal where a lot of people lost their Marvels over then there has been, I feel, almost this gold rush to tracking tools, right, high Ross, triple whale, North beam trace, if I they get cloud everywhere, right? Whilst they obviously have certain advantages, they don't really or fix everything either. So what do you feel like is the state of tracking for marketers in 2025 what sort of the gold standard the current challenges you feel that you see all the time and had to deal with?
Yeah, I mean, you did already mention a couple of tools, and those tools do try to scratch an itch that a lot of marketers have nowadays, just the single source of truth. I feel like most of the time, every BPC specialist or marketer in general is just trying to or is on this quest for perfection, but nobody's actually finding it, because you have so many things to take into account nowadays that to not only determine how much data you're going to measure, but also how good the data is you're measuring. I mean how good your attribution is in the long term of longer customer journeys. And from what I'm seeing, consent is a really large part of how much data you're measuring. Nothing comes close in that regard, and a lot of people do tend to focus on other fancy tracking stuff, while at the meantime, 50% of people do decline your cookie banner. So yeah, you're only measuring 50% or less, because of that, Cookie lifetime is also affected by browser restrictions. And apart from that, you also have tracking requests being blocked by ad blockers, affecting, once again, the amount of data you're measuring Apple doesn't help either with all of the iOS updates, so it's become a bit of a mess, really. So I'd say for the average marketer, the current landscape is pretty bad. It's way more difficult than it was a few years ago, even when I started working in digital marketing in 2019 especially if you're looking at the whole customer journey, but for the more tech savvy marketers, I'd say that the current landscape is actually a dream come true, because with every every new restriction that comes around, you have a new solution that fixes the problem, some new stuff To dive into. There's always something happening and also adhering to user privacy is never a bad thing. Of course, it's also an obligation. I think you have as a as a marketer, if you're you're working with a lot of customer data, so let's say mixed feelings in that
regard. Yeah, I agree. It seems to be coming out. And obviously with, you know, you probably managing PPC accounts. If you get this all the time as well, you get, well, you won't, because ideal setups, but we certainly have in the past, Google taking it extremely seriously as well, right? So they haven't they, they've been sort of not. We thought there'd be empty threats for a while, right? Because they always made certain announcements which they didn't really follow through. But I've seen ad accounts shut down now, right? Or been severely restricted because they're not respecting using privacy,
and they are actually heavily penalizing a lot of accounts as of right now. They were doing this for a while already, but yeah, you saw it a few times. I mean, one account of yours as well, right? Yeah, yes, yeah. Very annoying blacklisting without ever notifying the client or the agency managing the account. But yeah, that's happening for a lot of accounts, not implementing consent mode properly, not using a proper consent banner, especially in the EU or defaulting everything on grounded Well, that's also not allowed by GDPR, implying consent instead of asking for explicit consent. So yeah, it's very important.
Yeah. Quick question on that, do you feel what? What do you feel is, then, nowadays, sort of a gold standard solution to overcome all of that. Do you feel like it's, it depends a little bit from situation to situation, or is there sort of a general solution that will work best for. People right now, what I mean by that is, most people will be listening to this, of course, on Shopify, right? And let's say Shopify is native solution is shit at best. That's better like that. What's kind of the best way to navigate privacy and to also navigate the solid tracking setup, maybe not only just for Google ads, right, but for for other channels as well. In that,
yeah, I mean, from, from what I'm seeing, the most well integrated solution is Google, Google's consent modes. And Google's consent mode is obviously part of Google tech manager, where you're able to basically capture the consent state of someone interacting with your consent banner and adjusting the behavior of the tracking code you're triggering on the page based on that. And why it's the gold standard. Is it because, especially for the for the Google tags, which are for most businesses nowadays, especially SMEs, web shops utilizing Google Analytics and Google Ads heavily. It's a great solution, because it not only helps you adhere to GDPR, but it also helps you measure a little bit more than you would otherwise, while adhering to consent. Because consent mode works in a way, where if someone consent, consents with your cookie banner, not great, you'll know everything about that user, or not everything, but a lot. But if someone doesn't accept, denies the consent banner, then Google will receive an anonymous ping, signaling that there's actually a user on that page, but not necessarily knowing anything about that user and or the stuff that he's going to do afterwards on your website, but knowing that there was actually a user on your website, Google can basically use the data they have on the users who have consented to be tracked and model it on the users for who they have received An anonymous thing for and that's how they are getting a bigger picture than they would have otherwise, while still adhering to GDPR. There's still some discussion in the industry whether this is actually legal. So far, no no contradictions. It seems to be perfectly legal as of right now, as long as you implement it properly, of course, because you see that going wrong quite a few times as
well. Yeah, yeah, I can write a book about that. I think, as you know, what do you think is the most you obviously help a lot of people set set this up, what is sort of the most obviously, besides getting that sort of stuff wrong, what are sort of the most obvious mistakes that you see that people track, maybe wrongly or rightly? And also, what kind of benefits do you usually see in your clients or in your customers who you've helped fix their track and set up afterwards, like, what kind of what's the biggest benefit they get out of it, besides more data, of course, like what kind of real business impacts, for instance, have you seen by fixing those most obvious errors?
Well, if I'm talking about the single biggest mistake I see in tracking setups, and I do begin to sound a little bit like a broken record here, but it's still consent. There's also the largest impact on how much data you're measuring, but I'd say about 90% or even more businesses nowadays, or at least from what I'm seeing, they do not, not only have they not implemented Google consent modes improperly, but they are just not adhering to GDPR at all, or avk in the Netherlands. It's either the banner that isn't complying, making it way too easy to accept in comparison to denying it, obviously that helps in tracking more data, but it's just not GDPR compliant, or the banner isn't properly linked to the tracking setup, triggering stuff way before someone interacts with the banner. So wrong implementation of Google consent mode, and if that's set up properly, then there might still be a chance that you've messed something up in Google consent modes. Either the defaults or the updates won't get into the whole technicality of that. And the reason for that is twofold. I think, I think a lot of clients just don't know how to adhere to GDPR properly, or they just have never been properly consulted by the agency or the announced marketer that's working on this. Or they know and they just don't care, which also makes a lot of sense, because if you look at larger businesses, I mean, if I'm looking at the Netherlands, for example, you have some of these large electronics web shops, people listening from Netherlands will know which one I'm talking about, that have consent banners that make it way easier to accept and to deny. And if you never read something about you know that web shop being penalized for not adhering to GDPR? At all, then why would you, as an SME ever put in the effort to do that, to do it yourself? So yeah, that's a decision every business, of course, has to make for themselves. Yeah, I'd like to advise businesses in a way where I'm going to say, well, this is how you how to do it properly if you want to do it otherwise, be my guest. But this how I would do it,
consent being the biggest one. Do you often encounter other issues that people are, for instance, measuring the wrong stuff like they maybe are not, let's say like the purchase tracking is wrong or they actually not, sort of measuring certain metrics. I rightly which they should be, right, like, sort of, I don't know, from add to carts to other stuff on the site, that's quite what do you think include?
I wouldn't necessarily. I mean, in a business sense, it is a mistake. But, you know, tracking, not the full customer journey, in a way, because what really helps you is with a proper tracking setup, is that you're able to measure the full customer journey. Let's say, for a web shop, that is the end goal is a purchase, obviously, but for a lead gen focused business, the end goal might be a customer, but a customer obviously someone with, especially with larger sales cycles. Someone doesn't become a customer from just being on your website. You have these larger sales cycles that you can only track using offline conversion tracking, while at the meantime, a lot of Legion focused businesses only optimize their ads towards form submits, calls, mail, clicks and so forth. So they're really under utilizing the technicality of what's currently possible with offline conversion tracking now being an example here, and in a business sense, I think that that does make a really large impact, because otherwise you just don't know what's actually resulting in in business, and you're just focusing on vanity metrics in that regard.
Yeah, you've mentioned, for instance, offline conversion tracking as well. What's one of the, like, coolest sort of projects you've done, like, maybe a larger scale kind of tracking implementation and look, which draws back to a question I've before, where you've seen generally the biggest business impact, right? Because, in the end, I suppose what tracking is all about, in the magic triumvirate between incrementality and marketing mix modeling, is to just tell the channel that you're operating, whether that's meta Tiktok and so on, what kind of works best, right like, and where to put the money and the bids and working within that. So what is like? One of the biggest business impacts that you've actually seen after fixing a setup somewhere? Can you,
I can think of a legion based business I've helped recently with offline conversion tracking. They were running both Google ads and meta ads at the same time, same budgets, around 10k a month. And there are a web shop, but a web shop for lease bikes. So
what happens to these bikes? So I didn't even realize, like, actual,
it is a thing in the Netherlands, very Dutch thing, that it is a very Dutch thing. It's become it's bigger and bigger, yeah. But it's really a growing industry, which makes sense for the Netherlands, I guess. But no, they were running Google ads and meta ads, basically for the same budgets. And you know the they are actually a web shop, but after, when someone does a purchase on the on the website, a contract obviously has to or someone has to be accepted for getting a lease contract has to be qualified first, then
accept. 100 people might fill out the purchase, but only, maybe 70% of them,
in a way that the purchase is only, you know, indicating the that they do want, want a lease contract in the end. But obviously that doesn't necessarily mean that they are accepted to actually get a lease contract. And both Google ads and meta ads were getting similar numbers in terms of CPA for the first amount. We're not focusing on ROAs, because obviously, with these contracts being with multiple values depending on the vendors that were responsible for the contracts and so forth. You couldn't really tell what the row is will be based on just the bikes value. So what they what we set up in the end was offline conversion tracking based on the contracts and also the profit value of the separate contracts, which in the end pushing the all the different accepted contracts back to both Google ads and meta ads. Yes, that meant that, in the end, that Google Ads was, if I remember it correctly, five times more effective in both CPA and yeah, so insane, yeah. So the quality, the lead quality, was just way higher via Google ads. So they eventually decided to come on business sense, to scale Google ads a little bit further, increase the budget and decrease the amount of budget that was allocated to meta ads.
That's amazing. It really just goes to show when you do that stuff properly, you know, you can actually make sort of proper business decisions, if you actually know what's going on, that's cool. That's That's amazing. I bet they were happy with that. So they were,
yeah, I mean, obviously not with the findings regarding Netta. But no, no, the steps they've taken since were were great
for the business. I got a question for you in that regard. So tracking, of course, is I've mentioned brought something just now, just because I've recently taken a huge interest in it as well. And that is the concept of, obviously, marketing mix modeling and incrementality, right? So really, the whole you said something at the beginning, which was interesting is that there's been this sort of pursuit of perfect attribution, and it doesn't really exist. And attribution is only one part of a lot of decisions in how you go about in, you know, a channel or multiple channels of marketing, how do you distribute, spend, for instance, between channels like in the example you just mentioned, or what actually causes people to make a business decision. So how do you balance sort of the or what's the advantage or disadvantage of, you know, getting data and having the best attribution possible. But does it always mean that it's actually indicative of all the channels actually doing better or worse, right? So how do you balance that between decisions like that, for instance, in the yet, in the example just now, right? Attribution said maybe Okay, the quality of traffic from Google was better. But that could have been maybe because meta ads influenced people to to make, to make a certain business decision. Do you know what I mean?
Yes, yes. That's why we also pushed the same offline conversion tracking to Google Analytics, which obviously decreased the numbers for both channels a little bit, and allocated it to other channels as well. But that still meant that the outcomes were somewhat similar to what we saw in the platforms, but I mean, in a way, obviously, that it helps to have a single source of truth. A lot of businesses are looking for this nowadays. The technology is out there. You're talking about marketing mixed modeling, which I think 99% of businesses is not utilizing, as of right now. It also does not make sense, in my opinion, for
you have to be of a size, yeah, of a certain size, certainly,
yeah, yeah. I mean, in a way, I'd say that the most important thing for for businesses is to just choose a single source of truth and never go with in house or in platform, metrics to be your single source of truth. So not Google ads, not meta ads. Choose a single source of truth that measures across the whole customer journey, whether that be in Google Analytics or CRM or the third party attribution platform, there's always going to describe, going to be a discussion about the accuracy of the data or the amount of data you're measuring, especially when you're a little bit of a tech, tech savvy business owner, tax heavy marketer, and you're quite interested in this kind of stuff, you'll never feel fully satisfied with the data you're seeing, because the data is never going to be perfect with all the limitations we just talked about. You need modeling because you because accurate data or 100% accurate data is not possible. So I feel like the most important thing is to for businesses to at some point, just choose a single source of truth, even though the data you're seeing might not be 100% accurate or not give you the full picture, maybe not. It's not 100% of it, maybe 70% as long as it gives you, gives you the insights to to make business decisions across different channels, budget allocations and so forth. I say that's the most. That's the most important thing. While, at the meantime, I see a lot of people still, you know, going after the latest tracking developments promising you another 2% uplift in measured data. While, in my opinion, that's never going to give you as much of a business effect as just choosing single source of truth and actually making decisions would be,
you know what? Put it on a fucking t shirt and shout it out loud, is all I'd say, because I've. Feel very, very similar. Or, of course, you want to have as much data as possible. But as you rightly say at some point, you just That's why, when a lot of people like ask me about these sort of tools like Cloud, I'm not affiliated with anyone, I just say, Potato, potato, right? Fucking. Just choose one and go with it and and you can work off there, right?
Exactly, yeah. And obviously every business has different needs, and based on those needs, you can choose tool X or tool Z. It doesn't really matter, as long as you just choose one and, and, I mean, if you're at the start of it all, and you want to set up tracking in the best way possible, and obviously you want to add you to the latest best practices. Have it all set up. But, I mean, it's good to maintain it in a way. But I wouldn't really want to keep going back to try this thing, try that thing. Move from one tracking tool to another. Just choose a single source of proof for the data you're seeing. Stick with it. Start making decisions, and don't look
back. And I think a lot of people sort of maybe get one thing wrong as well, is that you know maximum visibility on your data is meant to give you just better decision making tools, I suppose, or better basis for decision making within your channel, like bidding algorithms. You mean, for example, yeah, correct, yeah. So you know what keyword works better than another one based on what I'm seeing that that sort of decisions. It doesn't really always after effect, you know, like budget allocation between channels, not always, sometimes it does, but not always. Yeah, super interesting. So maybe I've got two more or three more questions, and then we can land this plane. I want to throw in a keyword, and that is server side tracking. A lot of people talk about it. A lot of people heard about it. What the hell is it actually and what? What's the difference to to like normal tracking, I guess for the layman out there, how would you explain it and why is it? When should you use it as well? When is it recommendable?
Okay, let's, let's start with the difference between client side tracking and server side tracking. Then at least. So what normally happens with client side tracking is when when a website visitor comes on your website. Let's say you're using a tool like Google Tag Manager or any other tool. When someone does something on your website, a request is triggered in the direction of a third party platform, let's say Google Analytics or Google ads, that platform is obviously when you want to send data there is not utilizing your own domain, your clients domain. So that's client side tracking. Something happens on your website and you're sending a request with a lot of data inside it to a third party domain. Obviously, attribution then works via cookies where data is stored. But if you want to use server side tracking, you're actually putting a server in between the process. So first of all, the tracking requests, all of a sudden do not contain the third party domain anymore, but your own domain, maybe subdomain where the server is hosted, then you are collecting all of that data in a server or server environment where you're able to then basically funnel that data to the third party platforms you were initially also sending data to directly via client side tracking. And why this is a benefit for a lot of businesses is that server side tracking is a little bit less affected by intelligent tracking prevention in browsers and also ad blockers, because these tend to look for tracking requests that are going to third party domains, which server side tracking obviously does not do for cookies that are being placed from IP addresses that are way different than the one actually Loading your website, or just cookies being set by domains that are not your own, and server subtracting helps in making this a little bit more first party, and also loading code on your website via first party domains, so your own domain included, helps you measure a little bit more. But the biggest benefit to server subtracting is something else, in my opinion, because if the only benefit you're using server side tracking for would be more data, then most of the time, I would ask people that actually, what do you think that the end result is going to be with the additional data you're measuring? We just talked about bidding algorithms. For example, let's say you're using server side tracking for for Google ads, and you see that it's measuring like 10% more data, which might be the average across many different businesses utilizing server side tracking and but before using server. Side tracking. You were already measuring a significant amount of data, let's say, 1000 conversions a month across three campaigns, so nothing too special there, and now you're measuring 10% more. Is that really going to affect the bidding algorithms in the ad platform? If you're measuring 10% more data, while the original amount you're measuring was already quite significant, giving the right conclusions to the building algorithms is then the 10% going to really matter. So for some businesses, especially with shorter customer journeys that are obviously less affected by shortened cookie lifetimes. Sometimes server side tracking might not actually be the solution you're you think it is because if just the additional data measurement is your only goal, utilizing server tracking, is that really worth it? Then in the end, the setup costs, the monthly maintenance costs, you'd have to you'd have to pay. But if your customer journey is a little bit longer, let's say, seven plus days. Or you want to start a server side tracking because it helps you generate a significant amount while that wasn't previously the case. Or you want to leverage other things that server side tracking enables you to do, like profit tracking or offline conversion tracking, which you can also do via a service like Google tech manager environment, or maybe you want to have actual, accurate new customer tracking, matching email addresses. You're tracking with a database of all your your customer emails, and then, you know, passing the data back to Google tech manager, sending it to the ad platforms, I'd say that's way more in those are way more interesting use cases for server side tracking than just measuring more data would be, although sometimes that could be an interesting goal, but I most of the time, I don't think that's that should be the only reason why businesses start using server side tracking. It's
potentially monthly ad spend or like, sort of volume decision factor as well, like, if you're spending under X, don't even bother
kind of thing, yeah, yeah. Okay, exactly, yeah. And, I mean, obviously there's, there's not really a ceiling or a limit when all of a sudden, service side tracking starts to become relevant. It's different for for every business. Like I said, you want to utilize some, some more advanced functionality that server side tracking allows you to to set up, then be my guest, go set it up, or I'll set it up for you. But if only additional data is the end goal, then you really have to look at, you know, the the end goal there that what that additional data is going to help you, help you with,
okay? And finally, the the everyone's obviously talking about it, AI, where do you feel that is going to play a part in either setting up more complex attribution setup soon, or maybe even helping potentially modeling data, right? I suppose it could have quite a significant impact on that.
Yeah. I mean, it does depend a little bit on how you define AI. Some businesses nowadays with these third party attribution platforms do already call their their own data driven models influenced by AI. You could, I guess it's a broad term. But besides that, there are, there's already some stuff out there that actually helps you to set up tracking and analytics as well. There are now MCPS. And of course, this is an abbreviation that not many people maybe are really familiar with, but MCPS basically allow you to connect third party platforms with AI, so you're able to directly chat with the platform and do stuff with it still quite technical to set up, but it is already available, for example, for Google tech Manager and Google Analytics, where you're able to chat with AI and set up tracking tags or analyze your own data. So I do see a future where that's way easier to set up, or maybe web apps that actually utilize this technology but are way easier to interact with or to set up by the average marketer, and that in the end, then allow you to not go into the individual platforms anymore. Google tech manager, Google Analytics being the example here, except just to check a few things, maybe, but just directly, only chat with AI to set everything up and then be done with it, basically. And then you can combine it with data modeling, marketing mix modeling a tech that's already available. We just talked about it. Some people do already call that AI, but it allows for a future that you know you could still adhere to GDPR with all the limitations that are out there as of right now, while getting way more inside insights than you do right now, and making the lives of tracking specialists a lot easier. Here at the same time? Yeah,
I think it's sort of almost the same as everywhere, right? It's going to make our lives easier and maybe a little bit more efficient. But what my fear is is that, you know, I don't know as much as you so you use in tools like that is a lot more powerful than than me, right? Because I'm, I'll be staying the same loop, and sort of my fear a little bit, is that people won't understand the fundamentals and try to use then AI tools to sort of as a shortcut, to be able to set up certain things without actually understanding what the hell they're doing. If that makes sense, yeah.
And I guess in that, in that sense, Google ads is already a little bit further ahead than than, you know, using AI for Google tech manager or Google Analytics is, yeah, and you and I think you're absolutely right in in that regard, you do see, like, the more junior people that are not It killed juniors as well. I yeah, you already see it, I think in Google ads, right? You know, seniors still out there killing it. And I think that's that might also be the future for tracking analytics, where the people that have actually interacted with all of those tools gotten to know the basics started, you know, leveling up year by year and increasing their knowledge. Just just working with the tooling themselves. They're obviously able to utilize AI very well in the near future, but the juniors using it don't know the basics. So that might be a dangerous tool.
Yeah, yeah, it might be dangerous. I mean, it's, I think it's going to pull itself through everything, right? I don't know, like even academia and so on, right? Not to go too off topic, but I don't know you probably did like maths in school as well, and understood how to interpret graphs and shit like that. Now you could just take a photo of it and ask chatgpt what it means, right? Give you the outcome faster. And that's all well and good, but you don't actually understand why it did that, or what the mechanics behind it is. So, yeah,
everyday. Bit bummer.
Yeah, bit of a bummer. Don't want to end on a bummer. Let's end on something good. How can someone get in touch with you if they want to learn more, if they want to be coached, highly recommended, by the way, if they feel they've got an issue with a tracking setup that they need to solve offline conversion tracking, or you've done loads for us, right, and you've done loads for y and d as well. So a big shout out. How do they get in touch with you, and how can they level up with you?
Thanks. Ben, people can contact me on LinkedIn if you want to also have my own website, which is also LinkedIn, in my LinkedIn bio. I think LinkedIn is the most is the easiest way to contact me, but you might be able to put a link in the in the
podcast description as well. Yeah, we'll do great. Great. I think LinkedIn is the easiest. Yeah, cool. Thanks so much for your time. It's your first part. You've absolutely smashed it, I'm sure.
I hope so. I hope so still have to listen to
it brilliant. Thanks so much for your time. Appreciate it and well we speak to each other soon anyway.
Thanks, man. Speak soon. Bye.